tai-chi?

can anyone tell me, if tai-chi has good self defense techniques for the modern day defense, i know that it is based on using the opponents strength and force against himself, but does this really work in todays society - self defense wise, street wise, etc..

Have humans changed? Have we physically and mentally evolved that much from when you think Tai Chi was actually last used at its best? It's used today, over and over. You just don't know or hear about it. Self defense is self defense. It doesn't become less applicable with time.

can anyone tell me, if tai-chi has good self defense techniques for the modern day defense, i know that it is based on using the opponents strength and force against himself, but does this really work in todays society - self defense wise, street wise, etc..

True, if a martial art works in one age, it should work in another (but bear in mind that you can't karate-chop a Smith & Wesson.) And tai chi certainly works.

Specifically, I study tai chi at a school that also teaches judo, karate, and chang-chuan kung fu. Of the four styles, my teacher claims that tai chi is probably the most useful in an actual fight. Every tai chi 'posture' (actually a small routine similar to a karate kata) has three martial applications (as well as therapeutic ones) - against an unskilled opponent, against a practised fighter, and against a skilled martial artist. After a few years of practice, I (a notably unathletic wimp) have come to feel that I could hold my own against a random attack in a bar, and maybe even get away unscathed from an unarmed street fighter.

A little anecdote. After I had been learning for less than a year, and had barely memorised ('mastered' is definitely not the right word) the basic 24-forms Yang style, my teacher started explaining some of the applications of the moves. I was taken, in particular, with the use of High Pat On Horse (a slow counter-circling move with both hands) to get out of a wrist-lock. I offered to demonstrate it to one of my work-mates, a much larger and stronger man. I had in mind a controlled show, but he immediately grabbed my arm in a bruising grip, so I went into the move, no faster than I'd learnt it in class. Barely a second later I had him in a wrist-and-elbow lock, using just a finger and thumb on one hand and one finger on the other. He was amazed and impressed. Frankly, so was I.

Of course, you wouldn't expect things to happen that slowly in a real fight. That's what Push Hands is for. The advanced students in my class (including me, now!) are pressing the teacher to include some regular Push Hands in our sessions. That will give us the practice of reading and reacting to an opponent's moves that you need for combat. And unlike sparring, there is no danger of injury or even being hurt.

If you want to use tai chi as a martial art, you will eventually need to learn push hands and san-sau. And I would recommend Chen style, although Yang style can also be used in self-defense. Wu style seems to still have the old closed access mentality - some of their teachers are very good, but most of the students don't seem to learn much. I don't know anything about Sun style. Nearly all of all the moves in all forms are still applicable. The only one that I can think of that isn't much use nowadays is Needle At Sea Bottom, which is a stiff-fingered jab at the top of the foot. If your opponent is wearing shoes, forget it.

Tony.

Thank you both for taking time to answer my question. I did do tai-Chi about 13 yrs ago but i only did it for about 8 month and i packed it in, but i did enjoy it, since then i did Lau Gar kung fu for a few yrs and got about 5 or 6 sashes in that(cant remember exactly). But for the last few yrs i have wanted to train again, but didn't really want to go back to Lau Gar, one main reason is that i am older and that i am not the most flexible of people. But i am interested in Tai-Chi because of its health benefits for the body i.e. the breathing and slower relaxing pace of it. Also i am prone to being the anxious, unrelaxed type, which i know will benefit from the before mentioned benefits of Tai-Chi. One last thing before i go, are there anymany kicking techniques involved in Tai-Chi, not that i am too concerned about that because i do enjoy using kicks in training. Once again, thank you..

I have never heard any instructor, teacher, master or practitioner of any martial arts system say that their system didn't work or is not the best. You will only hear this from the mouths or some disgruntled student, a convert or from someone of a different system or style. In truth whether a system really works is dependent on the practitioner and how well the instructor informed the student of the reality of a real fight.

Kocho

paul says...

The kicking postures that I went over were quite simple. And the good thing is that in Tai Chi, kicking above the mid section is not supposed to be good (I was taught it was bad form, period). So, you don't have be an athlete to accomplish them. I think there were 3 or 4 postures out of the first 60 postures that had a kick in them.

+1200,

TL says...

How many years have you been involved; what style are you learning, and what do you consider to be an 'advanced student?'

How my instructor taught, was he believed you had to learn all the postures, short form and long form, swords and then you went on to your push-hands. So, push hands was a 6 to 8 years away, at least, from when you first started.

What's san-sau?

I heard that Yang style was a quicker route to learning self-defense.

Realistically, Tai Chi being an art, there is no *one* way of teaching it. That is why I am so curious with what others opinions are on the subject: to compare.

Is that what Needle at the Sea Bottom is really for? I thought it was just some form of stretching exercise for your back and legs. I didn't get into asking my instructor too much about what a posture did for fighting or not. There were more females than males in my class, and, frankly, no one was really interested in the fighting techniques of Tai Chi. If it came, then it would be an added bonus to it all if, in fact, you could defend yourself. As a matter of fact, not one person in the class got into it for that reason. However, it did come apparent that you couldn't separate Tai Chi from its MA aspect. The instructor would be doing everyone a disservice if he didn't explain how a certain postures

I wrote my experience with Tai Chi in an article posted here titled: Deciphering Tai Chi: my experience with the application, if you care to look at it. It didn't go over as well as I would have liked. I am really interested in finding out if other instructors teach like I was taught, without travelling the country.

Personally I prefer the interpretation in which it gives your opponent nasty whiplash while dislocating his shoulder, but your mileage may vary.

Actually, tai chi chuan is far superior for OFFENSE as opposed to defense. You can really mess someone up with it.

The key, of course, is finding a teacher who really knows tai chi as a martial art. Practicing applications should be 50% of the training, else it is probably not real. If the teacher does not regularly demonstrate and have you practice the applications inherent in the form, you are wasting your time.

+1200,

TL says...

The subject line is: 'Deciphering Tai Chi: my experience with the application' on RMA. I posted it several weeks ago, so it might not be there right now.

Put all or part of that in a Dejanews search, or, if your news feed still has that article then you can do a search for it from your news reader, if it has that capability.

If you can't find it, I will repost it in this thread in response to you.

Other cultures fascinate me as well.

The tai chi students wander in any old how and start chatting or

Guess that's one reason there aren't too many effective Tai Chi people