Hadakajime

Picture shows Mifune Sensei applying compression to Uke's tracheae.

Both versions shown indicate pressure to Uke's tracheae, in accordance with the text to figure 27 Page 120 '.. pull hard against his windpipe with your right arm.'

But states that 'The way you get a strangle on your opponents depends on the type of technique you use: 1. In some you get your hold only on his windpipe. 2. In others you apply pressure to both the windpipe and to the carotid artery. 3. In still others you apply pressure to the carotid artery and the jugular vein' Or to paraphrase, Kudo believes that some Judo Shimewaza attack the airway. He then proceeds to illustrate and describe 4 Hadake-Jime variations which show compression of Uke's tracheae.

I have witnessed windpipe compressions used in regional national and international competitions. The only times I have seen them penalised are 1) Tori has not got his strangling arm under Uke's chin and is attempting to dislocate Uke's jaw or squeeze his teeth loose. 2)Tori is not supporting the back of Uke's head and the strangle is degenerating into a neck lock. 3)Tori is strangling Uke from behind and is arching his back into a spine lock. Otherwise the technique is permitted.

They don't

Pulling the head backwards would in Randori would severely upset the supervising instructor, in a contest it would annoy the referee.

The very next paragraph begins 'If you prefer you can reverse the order..'

Absolutely nothing except the description of another variation which concludes '..and so choke your victim by sustained pressure of your left wrist bone on his windpipe.'

There is also the description of Sode-Guruma-Jime on page 134/135 'Use both hands to pull your opponent backwards and he will be speedily throttled into submission. This is one of the more effective chokelocks not usually illustrated. And in this method too the object of attack is your victims windpipe.'

As to some of your points including pushing Uke's head forward the following are from Koizumi.

Page 110 introduction to chapter 8 'Shime Waza-Strangling Techniques or Neck Locks'

'The objective of Shime-Waza is to effect a comatose state on the opponent. Technically it is to apply pressure to the opponents neck to prevent the blood circulation to the brain, or to squeeze the throat or chest to subdue the normal breathing. This can be done by using the jacket, wrists, arms or legs. The former if applied correctly takes effect within a few seconds without undue discomfort to the opponent, the latter a few minutes with much discomfort'

In the following 8 points of general guidance there is the following.

'2. To prevent the blood circulation to the brain, the pressure to be applied should be on the blood vessels at the base of the neck where they have the least muscular protection. To prevent the breathing the pressure should be applied at the front of the throat or on the floating ribs.'

In the introduction to Hadake-Jime (Page 120) there is the following:- 'As the term indicates, for Hadake-Jime the jacket is not used. There are several methods but as all are to apply pressure to the throat, care should be taken, not to cause undue discomfort to Uke.'

In the first variation described (the basic clasped hands version) the text states '..resting his left forearm on Uke's left shoulder, clasps his hands together then contracting and levering the arms and wrists draws his right wrist in against Uke's throat. In doing so, to prevent Uke from pressing the back of his head against Tori's chest for defence, Tori should have the back of Uke's neck on his right upper arm.' In the accompanying photograph Mr Koizumi is compressing his Uke's tracheae.

In the third variation shown, Uke is in Jigotai and Koizumi has trapped Uke's head in his armpit and is applying Hadake-Jime the text states :- 'Tori presses his right wrist upward against Uke's throat, while placing the weight of his body on Uke's head. In doing so, to prevent Uke from raising his body for defence, Tori should press his chin against Uke's back.'

So to précis Mr Koizumi :-

1)Some Judo Chokes attack the airway. 2)It hurts. 3)You shouldn't hurt Uke more than you have to. 4)You push the head forwards to generate extra pressure, and to prevent Uke from defeating the strangle.

First, thanks for your comments, Mart... sometimes I get this weird dream that only Eis reads my posts...

As for your desire to do your hadakajime in a safer manner... absolutely! Everyone has to live with themselves if they injure their uke... I believe my hadakajime is controlled enough so I won't injure someone, but it's not hard for me to imagine how much injury could be easily caused.

In fact, as I mentioned somewhere, many sensei don't even teach hadakajime as an 'air' choke to beginners... reserving that sort of training to brown belts and above.

And besides, we all know how hard it is to keep new recruits to Judo, we don't want our potential training partners to wander off to some other activity due to injury!

And amazingly he provides with another example of partial quoting and misrepresentation.

In this case there is a standing choke used to drag uke down into a kneeling position which is a standard kneeling hadakajime right out of the katame no kata. Now I discuss how standard this looks and guess which one he posts. Surprise, surprise he posts TWO pictures of the standing drag down and conveniently does not post one of the standard kneeling hadakajime just below it and labeled 24c-2.

If anyone is following the discussion, you might remember that I said the one place you use a bar style hadakajime in self-defense is to drag uke backwards and down so that you can put on a standard blood choke.

That, of course, is what is depicted in words and in the two pictures on this page.

Mr. Holmes, Mr. Holmes. Come out, come out, whereever you are and post the other picture please.

Both of which are clearly not the one on the same page that I was referring to.

Your usual misrepresentations. Are you going to come clean and post the real picture?

...>

Insightful discussion! Would YOU care to discuss the body dynamics that you believe make this a breath choke?

But why press it forward? And why do the self-defense applications show it pressed forward. (Of course, in a blood choke it compresses the vessels on the other side of the neck, but that would not be needed if you were attacking the windpipe.)

order..'

An interesting aside is that the vagus nerve going to the heart is normally inside the carotid sheath on the left and is directly compressed by the right-side version of this choke, but not the left-side version.

It's hard to imagine that something so extremely painful WOULDN'T result in very severe injury.

Ah, this addresses a point that puzzled me.

Where I trained judo, the coach told us never to bar the windpipe. I thought it was illegal. We learned hadaka jime with pressure on the arteries only. Same for kazure hadaka jime. And kataha hadaka jime - we did it the way the babe said, with uke's chin in the crook of the elbow.

Also, when I did jujutsu, they liked kataha hadaka jime following a takedown to the rear, and taught it the same way. They said never to bar the trachea unless you wanted to kill the guy.

What, you mean a little emergency tracheotomy might drive them away? Bah, you don't want wimps like that hanging around anyway.

Or at least occasional injuries.

One wonders why white belts need to be doing chokes anyway.

Also, if as everyone seems to agree, breath chokes are less effective, why do they teach the less effective version to higher ranks?

And it still is probably technically illegal, but the opinion of most IJF people (including refs) seems to be that the old style of having some integrity in a 'do' art (stuff like 'mutual prosperity' and the like) and the idea of good sportmanship in a sport are old-fashioned. It is replaced by some sort of adverserial (between opponents and between contestants and the refs and judges) relationship that says anything you get away with either by hiding from the ref, being sloppy, or just pretending to be sloppy is allowed.

One person gave the example of simply slugging the guy with your hand in his gi while doing osoto. The general agreement seemed to be this was ok as long as it looked like it was an accident, but the throw would still be an ippon. Or that not only hadakajime but any choke could be done by crushing the jaw and if uke tapped out before the ref could stop it he still tapped out and lost. If I did sport judo this way I would leave bodies on the mat.

We all know that in every sport there is a wide range of fairness and good sportsmanship with which people compete, but these guys would be ejected from tournaments I run maybe ejected from the school too. What surprises me is that the American IJF has grown so lax about these things. No doubt it is partially due to politics and the ref's fear that he will be asked to justify his call perhaps with videotapes. And this whole problem is what happens when you have sports where winning is more important than playing the game.

It is reasonably safe to bar it in a backward drag down if you don't whack it and if you don't force uke's head forward as you do it. Some injury is part of martial training. I have broken several bones over the years (both mine and other people's), not counting fingers and toes. The thing is know very well when you are doing dangerous things and when you are not. This is one thing that upsets me when people mix sport and self-defense or sport people think they are doing self-defense. Judo is nearly unique in martial arts in making this clear distinction between safe randori techniques that can be practiced at full strength, and self-defense techniques which require great control. Still, sometimes concentration slips or there is bad luck and people do get hurt. It happens when you do dangerous things.

LOL!!! I guess I'll never have to fear that Eis will run out of stupid things to say.

And although this isn't the first time she's made a 'dumb' comment about the IJF, this is a jewel!!

Yes, we all saw how misidentifying the page numbers as 95-97 instead of 96-97 is called a 'fabrication'.

If you believe it will help your point, here it is:
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime7.jpg

It's interesting how the only person supplying any of the sources is the one being accused of 'partial quoting and misrepresentation'. But as long as everyone else can see this stuff, I'm happy!

As you look at this, remember that Eis said it showed: '...obvious pressure on the SIDES of uke's neck.'

I posted the clearest photo there was... this new one is somewhat more difficult to make out, but I'm sure everyone will see how the right hand is pressuring the side of the neck... or is it tori's right earlobe? Hmmmm.....

I have no idea where you came up with this 'bar style' terminology. What you seem to be describing, is the way most Judo books describe Hadakajime. And, this is NOT what the text describes. You seem to be implying a shift of position after you 'drag uke backwards'... the text doesn't describe that... it just says to 'continue pressure'. So, who's fabricating what?

Nope... doesn't SAY 'blood' choke, and doesn't SHOW 'blood' choke.

Certainly... always happy to oblige... of course, if I were in 'your' position, I'd be embarrassed to have everyone else looking at these photos.

What? No comment?

What? No comment?

Notice here that it says to 'kneel and CONTINUE pressure', it says nothing about shifting position to a 'blood' choke. So, Eis's 'fabrication' shown above is proven. And the first two photos ARE INDEED the clearest representation of hand & arm position. Irritating, isn't it Eis?

'Clearly not the one'? Oh? Did you reference the number of the photo, or describe it's position on the page? It IS clearly the same technique. In fact, since the text describes a CONTINUATION of the pressure, and no changes in the technique itself, the first photo is inarguably the better photo to show hand/arm position. And in any case, I've posted the photo, and it helps your point not at all... Sorry Eis, you lose again!

Did so... Are you going to come clean and find ANY Judoka who agrees with you? Knowing you, I'd better spell this out... find any Judoka, preferably yudansha, who agrees with you that photo 24c-1 or photo 24c- 2 shows 'obvious pressure on the SIDES of uke's neck.' Go for it!!

I suspect that I wouldn't be the only one who thought it's really not possible to start a conversation with someone who apparently alone in the world believes that all these photos show pressure to the sides of the neck.

In order to 'discuss' anything, you must have some sort of common ground... some sort of common standard. This is something that you don't have, Eis. You make comments about the photos, for example, that NOBODY agrees with. And even more amazing, it doesn't appear to disturb you that you are alone in this.

Since you are apparently never wrong in any of your pronouncements, there's really no possibility of a discussion, in the sense of give and take... where both people learn from each other.

LOL!!! I really enjoyed a good laugh at this one, Michael!! You have such a subtle way of putting it!!

No, saying the text proved your point is a complete fabrication. The pictures are the same as all the others. Thanks. Do you deny that this is the better picture of a standard judo hadakajime? Why did you post the other and not this to begin with?

Hey, you have the scanner. Thanks. But it is nice when you don't try to bolster your side by providing only one of two pictures and the one that is less damaging to your position. And a greater front-back angle of the right arm. Come, now Mr. Holmes. How can you possibly say that a choke that is used to drag someone down is more standard than a very, very standard hadakajime? It was clearly an intentional misrepresentation.

But NO text shows a forearm flat across the windpipe (what I call

It depends on how nasty you want to be. Clearly the standard technique is not to dig in, but you can use any of the three joints of the thumb to press directly back against the carotid sheath and directly clamp the artery, vein, and vagus nerve, or dig it right into the trachea, or up higher right under the jaw. These things are NOT recommended to do on people you like or even people you would like to keep breathing.

I would do this on a dangerous big man who has a large enough neck muscles to make encircling strangles ineffective. It is standard koryu jujutsu to reach in and directly clamp and pinch arteries and nerves even more directly. If you let a good martial artist grab your neck at all you are in very serious trouble. That is another reason why using hadakajime as a pain technique is rather silly. Heck if you want to cause pain just reach in with your thumb and forefinger or whack the neck with your knuckles. Then you can sit back and relax while the guy turns blue or does a tracheotomy on himself.