Damasteel and other industrial made Damascus steels

My dear wife bought me a new issue of French knife magazine 'Passion de couteaux' and there was a article that spoke about industrial made Damascus steels. The writer of this article had a opinion that all industrial made Damascus should be categorized since it takes down value of the knife. I think he was referring that only hand made Damascus is precious enough to be used for custom knifes or knifes that have collectable value. Since many knife makers use 'Damasteel' from Sweden or Thunderforged® Damascus or something else in their knives he thinks it should be mentioned since it brings down the value of the knife. Of course it is more expensive if the Damascus was made by the smith him self but would you go to these measures? Should real hard ass knife smiths go and make the carbon steel them selves now? Do you guys think that industrial made Damascus steels are inferior to hand made? Do you think we should start to make categories to different Damascus steels? Hand made versus industrial?

In the end, my opinion is that Damascus is not the 'ultimate magic knife steel', not any of them, no matter what they are made of. They make really good blades but they are not the answer to all problems one has with knives. They do not give you eternal sharpness. They do not take the beating and abuse some people think they take. They will rust and brake like any other man made material. It is mystical, expensive, beautiful material but not the best knife material.

I love to use Damascus for my knives and will continue to do so since it is more rewarding to see the patterns appear when grinding and etching. After the acid bath I often wonder what I have done. (Ups, how did I do that...) Sometimes, not always, the pattern changes so dramatically that it sweeps you of your feet. Maybe I'm little passionate about this but this is the way I feel...

I like to make differential tempering for 'cosmetic reasons' too. Hamon is pretty and if the blade is little dim and not mirror polished, it gives the knife little more character. But in the long run if you have knife like that and you sharpen it a lot the blade will wear off and all you have left is soft back steel. Some might say that for example camp knifes or knifes that one uses for hitting or hacking must be differential tempered because they would otherwise break. Is it better if your old worn differential tempered 'warhorse' bends every time you cut a branch?

I think I'm suffering 'knifemakers block', don't have time to do knives and when I do I don't seem to get anything significant done. Sniff... Have any of you had this kind of problem? Just throwing some words to air, hoping to get some opinions from fellow knife people...

The very top end (I'm thinking about Hrisoulas' book) isn't made with these commercial billets, but with pattern welding where the pattern itself is a key part of the design. You have to have an idea of the shape before you can begin welding the billet.

measures?

That seems kind of odd. If the author thinks that using Damasteel or Thunderforged damascas for custom knives is too cheap, does he think that using regular stainless or carbon steel is too cheap as well? Even damasteel from sweden isn't cheap.. that stuff goes about $8-10/inch and Devin Thomas stuff goes for like $12-15 (i think) or more depending on the pattern (for similar thickness and stuff)

Good question, i dont use my knives hard enough to notice a difference. I bet Chas can give us some info on this one.

I they we do already. Usually when you order a Knife if it is a special type of damascus they will indicate that is it 'Mike Norris Raindrop' or 'Bryan Little Pool and Wave pattern' as opposed to the regular 'Odin's Eye Damasteel' or similar.

I think we have to have three categories really.

Damascus (real stuff) is just impossibly rare

Damascus (modern coarse-grained stuff) is pretty to look at, more than a functional improvement.

Pattern welding (large structures) is a decorative feature.

You can't combine the 2nd & 3rd without it looking a bit confusing, but the 1st & 3rd certainly could be.

Well, I suppose 'Damascus' as it is understood nowadays is the same as 'pattern welded', but with the main goal being aesthetic, rather than mechanical; i.e. to make the blade look special, since modern steels, correctly heat treated (and correctly chosen), offer the combination of hardness, toughness, corrosion-resistence that is required.

The article in question, to which Juha refers in his original post, is a sort of 'meditation of the fashion for Damascus'. The author compares 'art knives' aimed at collectors who will never use them for cutting, with 'user knives'... In essence, he thinks that industrial Damascus is too cheap for an art knife, and too expensive for a user. He also questions the aesthetic value of some knives with Damascus blades, but that's just a question of taste and personal preference. Finally, he points out that including a wavy line of pure nickel might be pretty, but it's not a good idea to have that nickel go right to the edge of the blade...

Hrisoulas, in the Master Bladesmith, descibes making pattern-welded swords with the deliberate aim of being historical reproductions, as accurate as possible imitations of Viking (for example) swords.

He also describes composite axes; but here, the question is not 'pretty patterns in the steel', but 'tough body, hard edge', which is not what most people understand by the term Damascus.

As for Wootz steel, this is peculiar enough to merit its own name, and I don't think anybody will start confusing the two materials....

However, it occured to me when I read a few articles about Wootz a few months ago, that Wootz steel is a lot like crucible steel (nothing to do with the Crucible steel company responsible for CPM30V CPM30V and CPM90V). I believe that Thomas Turton's was still pouring crucible steel into ingots and then having it hand-forged in the same way as 'double-shear steel' until the middle of the 1970s in Sheffield... If you're *very* lucky, you can apparently still stumble across boxes of old, part-forged blanks made from this steel.

But it's about right for a 'used for display' knife, as the various pagans, Sikhs and Scots favour.